Since there is so much knowledge...

[twin_engine]

Since there is so much knowledge on this forum, I am back with another question. I have a 2000 34ft (340) Sundancer with twin 7.4 engines. Very tight fit to say the least. Ok, here is the question: I am replacing the battery charger: the wiring for the existing one leads into the Main DC Breaker and Battery Switch Panel. It is located on the bulkhead in the engine room.  The front panel has two rows of breakers and a solenoid breakers for port and starboard.  I have opened  the fuse panel at the helm, with plenty of room to tip it back and gain access.  This Main panel, however, is quite large and constructed of plastic. The cover has several screws holding it on. Once removed it will be very awkward trying to place it somewhere. Once I pull the cover off, is there a decent  length of wire running to the breakers  to move it aside? The breakers have screws on each side and I think leaving them alone is the better side of valor. Last thing I need are the breakers falling in the panel. So, if anyone has tackled opening one of these, please share what you discovered.  .

[wingless]

My guess is that the wiring my my 2000 380DA is very similar to that on your 2000 340DA.

On my boat I have two plastic enclosures forward of the engines, the port enclosure is a tub, the starboard is similar, w/ the flat surface as a panel, screwed on the perimeter.

The port tub encloses the three contactors, port, starboard and generator, plus the interface box for the system monitor.

The starboard box has the circuit breakers mounted to the exterior panel and the windlass contactor mounted to the rear surface of that removable panel.

As would be expected, the wiring leading from the starboard panel is bundled nicely, to permit removing that panel for interior service. There is a decent amount of bundled wire to move that panel on an arc. I use utility towels to provide a non-conductive surface when moving a panel for service.

My recollection is that the charger output wires connect to the contactor lugs in the port tub box.

Note that THE SAFEST method for servicing the DC circuit is to first disconnect ALL the battery negative terminals at the batteries. Always avoid shorting positive and negative terminals together.

When I replaced the dinky AC / DC charger provided by Sae Ray when the boat was built, the surface area to the left of the port box was insufficient for the really nice charger that I selected. I instead mounted that charger to the surface of that port tub box. It has been working well for over a decade.

Remember that a battery will provide almost infinite current when short circuited so safety is very, very important. Bad stuff happens very, very quickly, almost instantaneously.

[twin_engine]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The starboard enclosure is where the charger wires lead into, on my model. Today the cover carefully comes off, and follow where the existing wires lead to. All batteries are removed and the AC power is disconnected. Did Searay use a three bank charger on your vessel with the wire leading to the fourth battery (generator battery) coupled to a bank output, so there are two batteries on one bank? Most new charger descriptions that I have read, limit each bank to one battery. The model in the boat is a Pro Tech - 4 Series model 1240. It produces a total of 40 amps. I suspicion that when set up, back then, it applied equal amps to each bank. The manual list it as charging 3 banks, not four. The manual does say it charges three separate heavy-duty batteries or battery banks as needed. So perhaps it differentiated between a battery and a bank, such that two batteries on that model could be charged on one connector (bank). As stated, in most write up on new chargers, it refers to a bank as one battery, only. My model has 4 batteries, the fourth being for the generator. I plan on purchasing a four bank charger with each battery having its own input. Perhaps, since the generator is an option, Searay used the standard charger with no upgrade to a four bank when a generator is installed.

[wingless]

You are welcome.

The factory built my boat w/ a three bank charger, for five batteries, two for port, two for starboard and one for generator. I upgraded / rewired to add a sixth battery, to get three on the house bank on my boat, for longer 'fridge run time when on the hook.

The charger has circuitry to provide the correct output to each bank, to satisfy the state-of-charge requirements for each battery.

My guess is your boat has three banks, not four. The only weirdness happens when an electrical bow thruster is added, w/ an additional battery to provide 24VDC for the thruster. That additional battery usually gets its own 12VDC charger.

A 40A three bank charger is supposed to charge each bank individually. There are some on-line notes about ProMariner but I don't know if your 1240 is problematic.

http://files.powerprodllc.com/~/media/inRiver/61210_USE_ProMariner.pdf?isdartitem=true

Chargers tolerate multiple batteries connected in parallel when properly size.

[wingless]

Here is my upgraded battery setup, w/ six Lifeline GPL-31XT 125Ah group 31 batteries.


https://live.staticflickr.com/4514/37072246074_d2bbab741d_c.jpg

[wingless]

It is likely that the ProMariner ProTech-4 charger is not the original device installed by the factory.

Mine was built w/ a Promatic 30-3 charger, but it failed early on and was replaced w/ a better charger.

It is likely that charger was also used when your boat was built, later replaced by the ProTech-4.


http://www.2040-parts.com/_content/items/images/98/2310698/001.jpg

[twin_engine]

Removed the cover, which came off easier than expected. There sure are an ungodly group of bundled wires in there. After studying where the various wires , eg, two leads to and from the disconnect solenoids and up to the switches then into a thick harness, I suspicion then running to the batteries. It is quite elaborate and poses some problems to disconnect from one of the solenoids, which is sandwiched between a bundle of wires and the back of the case. After studying what you did, it became apparent the three bank set up is as follow: one bank leads to two batteries in parallel (starting and house) port side. The next bank leads to the starboard battery. There is no house battery on that side. The final bank is a wire that leads to the generator, not controlled by the battery disconnects. When I saw your set-up, it became apparent that one bank was dedicated to the parallel configuration. I will be searching out a charger with no wiring leads built into it. This way, I can attache the existing leads to the new charger banks and not disrupt anything by spicing and perhaps having to splice two separate gauge wires together. Your photo and workmanship is good enough to be in a professional publication. The charger is a three bank and the 40 amps may have been to accommodate the parallel connection. So, I will seek out a three bank charger and hopefully with 40 amps output. Always the wiring is so precise and all encased in harness looms, and there is no indication of a charger having been mounted elsewhere, I think it may be factory. But you are right, it may be an aftermarket. As always, Thanks again.

[wingless]

You're welcome and thanks.

"The final bank is a wire that leads to the generator, not controlled by the battery disconnects." Well knock me over w/ a feather. I was convinced you must have been mistaken, until I examined the Owner's Manual for your boat.

https://bbg1.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#E0000000Z21E/a/E00000000UID/CTzbkzB3As.NK6abkWC896SkuiNCShQAMimZGRr7CdI

The images for your DC panels and the wiring diagram for your boat shows an unfused and an unswitched battery positive lead, from the generator battery to the generator.

Note that is not good. If that were my boat, then I would modify the wiring to add an additional contactor and additional switches, in the salon and in the engine room, so that wire may be disconnected under switch control. A fuse installed per ABYC wouldn't hurt to also add on that generator positive battery lead.

Whenever I modify my wiring I either mark up the existing documents, or I create new wiring diagram pages, so I always have up-to-date documentation. I also label both ends of every wire and cable for later identification.

Your boat was configured w/ four batteries, three banks, two batteries in parallel for port, one battery for starboard and one for generator.

The original three-bank battery charger has one wire lead (bank) connected to the port contactor, one to the starboard and the third to the generator battery positive lead.

The Owner's Manual shows that previously-identified Promatic 30-3 charger on page 12.

Note that if leads require replacement, such as for being too short, then it is important that the replacement leads are the appropriate marine grade, wire gauge and (especially important) have proper lugs, properly crimped.


Sea Ray used these contactors (like relays, but designed for high-current and toggles from OFF to ON to OFF, remaining at each state w/o requiring current, until selected to toggle to the other state). Yours probably also has contactors for both port and starboard banks, plus for generator, plus for windlass (if equipped).

My boat has rocker switches in the salon and in the engine room to toggle those battery bank contactors and at the helm to toggle the windlass contactor.

Yours was built w/o a contactor for the generator!


https://live.staticflickr.com/4699/38697254630_ca5a113d12_c.jpg

[twin_engine]

I Just came in from hanging over the engine and checking the positive wire from the generator battery leading to the battery charger. It is fused, it looks like it was done well after delivery. But the absence of the disconnect is still an issue. I am appreciative that I was not mistaken about no disconnect. Also, you are correct, the schematic does not show the wire fused. As I study the electrical diagram for the Batteries DC negative wires, I see the port and starboard batteries are grounded to the respective engines. There is an engine to engine ground. The diagram depicts a main DC ground buss for each engine somewhere near the side. The generator battery is grounded to the generator and the generator is grounded to the starboard engine where the starboard battery is grounded. I checked each negative battery cable and there are no separate ground wires leading off the post or cable. Here is one of my questions. Are the Main DC ground buss for each engine, connected to the Main DC ground Buss next to the Main DC panel box? This is where the negative buss bar is located on my boat, with many wires being fed to it for a ground. With the new charger, can the ground for each bank, connect to a separate buss screw on the negative buss bar next to the main DC panel box? After all is said and done: Where are the negative leads from the charger for each bank to be connected. I do not see any additional leads (negative leads) going to the batteries. Most schematics for the chargers show the wiring going to the negative post on the battery, but if the battery is grounded to the engine and the engine to a buss bar, then to the Main DC Ground Buss by the panel box should this be an acceptable place to ground the negative battery charger leads. If I could I would simply follow the negative leads on the existing charger, except the installation diagram shows a lead coming off each battery to a buss bar, and one wire from the buss bar to the charger. Recall, there are no leads coming off the the negative side of each battery. So, I am assuming for the existing installation they are coming off a negative buss. However, tracing each unmarked one does not seem possible. Unless you have seen the engine room in this boat with 7.4 v drives it is hard to understand why they cannot be traced. Every place in there is an extremely tight fit just to get in, not to mention trying to be flexible. The wiring is in plastic looms with numerous wires contained there in. These looms are wedged and strapped in place. I think about automotive battery chargers and jump starting a vehicle, the recommendation is not to connect a negative jumper (clamp) to a negative post, but rather ground it on a part of the engine. So connecting to a ground to a negative buss seems to make sense. Sorry for this being so lengthy, with the question being: Can the battery charger negative leads be connected to the negative buss bar, keeping them separate?

[wingless]

Yes, the 340DA engine room is very tight. That is a huge benefit of my 380DA, in that I can walk between my engines, plus get on either side of the engines. That extra room is very handy for repair, maintenance and upgrades.

Has the replacement charger been selected?

All three bank marine chargers I've seen use one single common negative wire / terminal, shared by all the battery banks.

My suggestion is to NOT run additional wires, such as for the charger, to the battery terminals. The battery should have the fewest number of wires possible on the terminals. Each battery terminal must have at least one red or black wire, as-appropriate.

"Recall, there are no leads coming off the the negative side of each battery." There must be a fat black wire coming off each negative battery terminal, heading to the Main DC Ground Buss.

The charger negative (black) lead should go to the Main DC Ground Buss.

The charger positive (red) leads for the port and the starboard banks should attach where shown on the wiring diagram. They should attach to the battery side of the contactors.

The charger positive (red) lead for the generator should be connected to the newly added fuse, instead of to the battery terminal (as-shown in the wiring diagram). I would put it on the load side of the fuse.

Feel free to post an image of the newly-added fuse. It is a safety-critical component and must be installed correctly.

Sea Ray built my boat w/ labels on each end of all wires. When I changed and upgraded my boat I also label each end of all wires and cables.

All of my wires and cables are in split loom or in raceways, per ABYC. All wires are secured along their length per ABYC.

It is unlikely that the boat will ever be jump started, like on a car.

Remember to use appropriately-sized marine wire, w/ appropriately-sized marine lugs and especially-important the terminals must be properly crimped, w/ correct crimp tools.


Here are my crimp tools:

https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/541969-soldering-crimped-battery-lugs-2.html#post11262694

https://www.thehulltruth.com/5587979-post18.html

https://www.thehulltruth.com/5596010-post26.html


Here is my Brady ID Xpert label maker:

https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/827700-wire-labels.html#post10067614

[twin_engine]

Thanks Wingless for sharing your knowledge and well being for all our safety. The charger is expected to arrive by Tuesday. It is the Quest 2731A, by Marinco. From the diagram for the Pro-4Tech series charger, it has a common ground from the negative buss to the unit. My boat has such a connection . It is called a common negative. It then refers to: " Batteries negative wires are run separately to the boat DC buss bar. Then a single connection is made to the chargers stud." The diagram shows the negative coming out of each bank, but it is not referring to the negative bank (port) on the charger, it simply shows three rectangles labeled "bank 1, bank 2 ,bank 3," each with a wire leading to the negative buss. It must be referring to the batteries as banks, because for the positive wires it shows them coming out of the Pro Tech charger connecting to the positive battery post. So positives are coming out of the charger and negative come off the negative battery post to the negative buss then connects to charger with the common ground. Just as an aside my positive connections for port and starboard go to the battery disconnects, that of course lead to the battery. This is why I was questioning if the negative has to run to the negative battery post. The diagram could be better presented, if it simply designated the battery connection to the buss as a main ground to buss. You have explained everything very well, and it all makes sense. When the Quest arrives, I 'll let you know the wiring for it. I suspicion, that the diagram in the Pro Tech manual showing a battery with a lead to the buss bar, is simply showing the main negative line to it, as you described. Now to check out your sites.

[wingless]

You're welcome.

Here is the manual for the Guest (not Quest) 2731A by Marinco 10/10/10 battery charger.

https://www.marinco.com/en/~/media/inriver/386773-43337.pdf

That three bank charger has three pre-wired, fused output cables.

The wiring should be "easy" for the port and starboard banks, positive wire to the contactor line lug and negative wire to the Main DC Ground bus. It might be required to remove some of the cable jacket so the ends of those two wires can reach the correct locations.

For the generator it is expected that much of that output cable jacket must be removed to permit the wire ends to reach that newly added fuse and reach the Main DC Ground bus.

Remember to follow the specified mounting orientation and follow all other manufacturer's instructions.

Note, it might be required to snip off the NEMA 5-15 plug to permit wiring the AC supply to the existing feed. It might also be required to add a marine junction box to effect that connection, if one doesn't currently exist.

[wingless]

Here is a decent marine junction box. They also offer an optional cover seal kit.


https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|344|2028705|2028880&id=1761126

[twin_engine]

I cannot thank you enough for all your assistance.

[twin_engine]

Just reviewed the manual; I was under the impression it was equipped with a common ground, coming off the buss bar. This is one of those chargers that show wiring directly to each battery. I am calling tech support tomorrow to see if it may be connected to the buss bar, and if the disconnect solenoids may be used for the positive. If not, I will return it. Thanks for sending the link for the manual, I looked all over for it before I ordered the unit but could not find a link. I will incorporate the junction box, pretty interesting. Best regards

[wingless]

FWIW, for the starboard and the port banks, one end of the fat battery cable is connected to the battery lug, the other end is connected to either the contactor line side lug (positive, red)) or to the Main DC Ground bus (negative, black), so yes, each end of those battery cables are electrically identical.

It is always good to follow ABYC and to NOT attach extra wires to the battery terminal lugs and instead connect them to the correct locations on the boat power distribution system, regardless of the low-tech manufacturer's instructions.

For the permanently mounted charger wiring, there are two charger types, one w/ screw terminals and no wires and the other type w/ the wires already attached. Either may be properly installed.

[twin_engine]

I have far more confidence in what you have to say and the ABYC rules than what appears at times from relatively uninformed producers of products. The reason I am calling is to hear what they have to say. I do not want a situation where I do what is right and if for some other reason it has a failure down the way, to have them say the warranty is void for not following what they printed, notwithstanding the failure was a completely different reason. If they insist on there publication, then it is going back. I was searching out a charger to connect wires with screw terminals, the only one I found in the 300.00 + range is the Xantrex True Charger 2, however, it did not have some of features I was looking for. I don't think it adjustd the charge to each battery as required. I wrote the company asking the question but received no response. If I stay with the Guest, then I will wire it as you suggest. If I find one with the terminals, it will be wired in the same fashion. I truly appreciate your assistance.

[wingless]

This one has M8 wire lugs instead of cables. It is $400 and the last one in stock.

Check the dimensions to verify if it will fit in the available space.

https://www.greatlakesskipper.com/victron-energy-boat-battery-charger-centaur-12-50-12v-50a

[twin_engine]

That is one heck of a charger, I'll see if it will fit, but I am not optimistic it will. Thanks. Also the Guest charger, requires four banks, in the schematic it has each battery with it own connection to the charger, regardless if in parallel. As always, thanks

[wingless]

You're welcome.

The Guest 2731A by Marinco 10/10/10 battery charger that you mentioned is a three bank charger.

The Guest 2740A is a four bank charger.

The attached image is from the 340DA Owner's Manual. It looks tight, but it might fit. Measurements are required. It might be possible to shift the port side light to the left, if required. Height is possibly the limiting factor.


https://www.marinco.com/en/~/media/inriver/386773-43337.pdf

[twin_engine]

I spoke with ProNautic rep, who is also versed on the Guest that I ordered. I reviewed the manual, found on line for the
ProNautic P 1240 series that the first rep. I spoke to recommended, and came equipped to ask about the differences in wiring. He explained the waterproof battery
charges have individual circuits and, therefore, the jacketed wires must be connected to each positive and negative posts.
The waterproof Guest charger,I was looking at is for boats that have more exposure to water. The charger for larger boats that have the unit under cover (engine room) are to connected to the negative bus bar and the positive can go to the disconnect
switches. The negative and positive leads do not have to match the specific battery. The 1240P can charge the two parallel
batteries, one starting and the generator, on the three leads outputs (three bank charger), therefore, not requiring a lead for each battery. They share a common ground from the bus to the charger bonding stud. If anyone is interested: Within the last @8 years, ABYC requires a fuse within, I think he said, 7" of the positive battery post. He went on to explain there are fuse adapters that mount on the post so no wire cutting and splicing is necessary. For a 40 amp charger, one uses a 50 amp fuse. Wingless, you were right on with your advice for the type charger I needed for placing in a covered engine room, proper wiring and fusing. Without your assistance and emphasis on safety, I may well have installed the wrong charger and wired it based on a non-waterproof, system.

[wingless]

Yes, the ABYC specifications get updated with new releases, but I'm reasonably certain it is not required for an existing boat to be reworked so it conforms to new requirements.

Each time I upgrade my boat I always follow the appropriate ABYC requirements.

My 2000 380DA was built w/o the close fuses, specified in current ABYC standards. When I have added new systems, such as my custom high-volume high-pressure compressor for my Kahlenberg air horns and whistle, I placed that new fuse close to the battery.


Custom Oasis XD-3000 Compressor Air System
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=6993

Kahlenberg Chimetone D-1 Air Horns
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=7028

Kahlenberg 117 Whistle
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=7045

[twin_engine]

I brought up the fuses for safety reasons and he mentioned how to adapt them to the existing posts. You are creative, with the horns and especially the whistle. Does it run off the same compressor? Not to be a copy cat, it is hard to resist not incorporating the whistle onto my vessel. I am glad you told me about the fuses.

[wingless]

Adding fuses is fine, if the implementation is very, very safe. I would not / have not jumped to add fuses, per the later ABYC revisions, to my boat.

But, your boat w/ no factory generator battery disconnect is a modification that would be at the top of my list.

Before modifying the boat to add fuses, please provide a link to the part.


Yes, the single high-volume, high-pressure compressor on my boat provides air to both the horns and to the whistle.

As would be expected, the air requirements for a horn are different to those for a whistle. The horn wants / needs pressure, the whistle wants / needs volume. Of interest, I can blow into my whistle w/ air from my lungs and make sound (albeit quietly), but my high-pressure compressed air blow off nozzle into the same whistle won't make a peep.

My system is designed to provide both volume and pressure.

The modified Oasis XD-3000 provides 8 cfm at 100 psi. It is one of the largest 12V compressors available. To that I also have a 15 gallon tank and am using 1" ID plumbing throughout the boat.

It is that unrestricted flow that makes the whistle happy. I've got over three gallons of air in the 1" ID plumbing from the tank to the 3/4" solenoid air valve for the whistle.

I love the sweet unidirectional sound of my Kahlenberg 117 whistle. There are commercial river cruise boats in my area w/ the identical whistle.

My over-the-top air system is designed for continuous duty.

If all that is required is an occasional toot, then a normal compressor, normal tank, but large ID plumbing will permit the system to work w/ the Kahlenberg 117 whistle. The 1" flexible hose from the tank to the valve will let this "large" whistle to work w/ a normal compressor.

It is instead possible to use a smaller, higher pitch whistle, like the Kahlenberg 115AMP, also shown in my topic. That smaller whistle works fine on a compressed air blow hose and a normal compressed air system.


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4482/37111990863_f848a20053_b.jpg

[wingless]

Copied from detached post...

The Stream - twin engine
Spoke with Marinco: The wiring for each battery must be installed as directed for the chargers longevity and correctness for the design, regardless if they are in parallel. He explained their interpretation as to why connecting to each battery post is compatible with the ABYC specs. For this model a parallel set of batteries each require its own leads going to each battery, and must have the companion leads in the jacket cable (positive and negative) connected to each batteries respective post, for this model charger. He said the Promatic model 63140 should meet my needs. What an awakening from when I first started out to select a charger. I am pleased with the education you provided and have added it to my bank (no pun intended) of knowledge. This forum is fortunate to have your vast experience and knowledge to consult with.

Today at 11:40 AM


My two concerns are compliance to ABYC: "No more than four conductors shall be secured to any one terminal stud. " and to avoid adding anything other than what is required to the battery terminal lug. I have seen "disaster" wiring on some boat, w/ LOTS of wires attached to the battery terminals.

It is absolutely not required to treat batteries connected in parallel as individual batteries, requiring their own battery charger bank.

That Marinco advice is wrong. It will result in very messy wiring and is 100% NOT required.

The charger is going to source about 10A maximum to the battery, at the peak, then dropping to lower current as the battery charges. That quantity of current is very low. Providing that current at the contactor lug of the battery cable IS IDENTICAL to providing that current at the other end of that fat thickness wire, at the battery terminal lug.

Instead, the battery charger should be selected to provide sufficient current for the total Ampere-Hour (Ah) capacity on the boat. A good minimum yardstick is 10A charger capacity for each battery, or 40A total for the four batteries on your boat, as a three bank charger.

A three bank charger is required for the four batteries on your boat, just like a three bank charger has been used for over a decade for the six batteries on my boat.

[twin_engine]

In speaking with the Marinco tech we were discussing the Guest Charge Pro Waterproof charger. This is the model that has the leads to each post. His explanation was addressing the waterproof chargers, only. As I recall this had to do with each charge bank having its own circuity as a part of waterproof design. This is what it shows in the manual. As I recall, he mentioned connecting one bank to a parallel group of batteries would affect the longevity and some other considerations. When I explained how my boat is with the positive leads to the disconnects and the negative to the bus bar, he asked about water exposure to the charger. For covered installations he recommended the Pro Mariner , ProNauticP series. This model does not have built in wiring and may be connected as you describe and as my boat currently is wired. This model charger may go to the disconnects and the the negative wires to a common bus bar, with the common ground back to the charger. So, it appears the difference in the wiring is that one model charger is waterproof, and the one we have is not. I suspect the wiring to post that I had seen for other models are all waterproof designs. The Pro Mariner tech, -- it seems the products are related since it is the same phone number, confirmed what you have been saying with the non waterproof series of chargers: connecting positive to the disconnects, negative to the bus bar, connecting one charge bank to parallel batteries, so that in my situation, four batteries may be charged from a three bank charger. With this charger it varies the amps to batteries requirements, not exceeding the maximum amps for the unit. Sorry for any confusion in not being specific that Marinco was addressing the waterproof designed charger, all changed once he heard that the charger was not exposed to water, being kept under cover.

[Bow_Tie]

My panel is hinged, when all the screws are removed the panel falls forward allowing me to work without any stress on any wires. Make sense?

[wingless]

The panel on your 2004 500DA may be different than the panel on the OP's 2000 340DA.