Since there is so much knowledge...
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10-23-2019 05:31 PM
Since there is so much knowledge on this forum, I am back with another question. I have a 2000 34ft (340) Sundancer with twin 7.4 engines. Very tight fit to say the least. Ok, here is the question: I am replacing the battery charger: the wiring for the existing one leads into the Main DC Breaker and Battery Switch Panel. It is located on the bulkhead in the engine room. The front panel has two rows of breakers and a solenoid breakers for port and starboard. I have opened the fuse panel at the helm, with plenty of room to tip it back and gain access. This Main panel, however, is quite large and constructed of plastic. The cover has several screws holding it on. Once removed it will be very awkward trying to place it somewhere. Once I pull the cover off, is there a decent length of wire running to the breakers to move it aside? The breakers have screws on each side and I think leaving them alone is the better side of valor. Last thing I need are the breakers falling in the panel. So, if anyone has tackled opening one of these, please share what you discovered. .
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10-23-2019 07:19 PM
On my boat I have two plastic enclosures forward of the engines, the port enclosure is a tub, the starboard is similar, w/ the flat surface as a panel, screwed on the perimeter.
The port tub encloses the three contactors, port, starboard and generator, plus the interface box for the system monitor.
The starboard box has the circuit breakers mounted to the exterior panel and the windlass contactor mounted to the rear surface of that removable panel.
As would be expected, the wiring leading from the starboard panel is bundled nicely, to permit removing that panel for interior service. There is a decent amount of bundled wire to move that panel on an arc. I use utility towels to provide a non-conductive surface when moving a panel for service.
My recollection is that the charger output wires connect to the contactor lugs in the port tub box.
Note that THE SAFEST method for servicing the DC circuit is to first disconnect ALL the battery negative terminals at the batteries. Always avoid shorting positive and negative terminals together.
When I replaced the dinky AC / DC charger provided by Sae Ray when the boat was built, the surface area to the left of the port box was insufficient for the really nice charger that I selected. I instead mounted that charger to the surface of that port tub box. It has been working well for over a decade.
Remember that a battery will provide almost infinite current when short circuited so safety is very, very important. Bad stuff happens very, very quickly, almost instantaneously.
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10-24-2019 08:01 AM
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10-24-2019 08:19 AM
The factory built my boat w/ a three bank charger, for five batteries, two for port, two for starboard and one for generator. I upgraded / rewired to add a sixth battery, to get three on the house bank on my boat, for longer 'fridge run time when on the hook.
The charger has circuitry to provide the correct output to each bank, to satisfy the state-of-charge requirements for each battery.
My guess is your boat has three banks, not four. The only weirdness happens when an electrical bow thruster is added, w/ an additional battery to provide 24VDC for the thruster. That additional battery usually gets its own 12VDC charger.
A 40A three bank charger is supposed to charge each bank individually. There are some on-line notes about ProMariner but I don't know if your 1240 is problematic.
http://files.powerprodllc.com/~/media/inRiver/61210_USE_ProMariner.pdf?isdartitem=true
Chargers tolerate multiple batteries connected in parallel when properly size.
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10-24-2019 09:00 AM
https://live.staticflickr.com/4514/37072246074_d2bbab741d_c.jpg
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10-24-2019 01:54 PM
Mine was built w/ a Promatic 30-3 charger, but it failed early on and was replaced w/ a better charger.
It is likely that charger was also used when your boat was built, later replaced by the ProTech-4.
http://www.2040-parts.com/_content/items/images/98/2310698/001.jpg
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10-24-2019 02:35 PM
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10-24-2019 03:53 PM
"The final bank is a wire that leads to the generator, not controlled by the battery disconnects." Well knock me over w/ a feather. I was convinced you must have been mistaken, until I examined the Owner's Manual for your boat.
https://bbg1.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#E0000000Z21E/a/E00000000UID/CTzbkzB3As.NK6abkWC896SkuiNCShQAMimZGRr7CdI
The images for your DC panels and the wiring diagram for your boat shows an unfused and an unswitched battery positive lead, from the generator battery to the generator.
Note that is not good. If that were my boat, then I would modify the wiring to add an additional contactor and additional switches, in the salon and in the engine room, so that wire may be disconnected under switch control. A fuse installed per ABYC wouldn't hurt to also add on that generator positive battery lead.
Whenever I modify my wiring I either mark up the existing documents, or I create new wiring diagram pages, so I always have up-to-date documentation. I also label both ends of every wire and cable for later identification.
Your boat was configured w/ four batteries, three banks, two batteries in parallel for port, one battery for starboard and one for generator.
The original three-bank battery charger has one wire lead (bank) connected to the port contactor, one to the starboard and the third to the generator battery positive lead.
The Owner's Manual shows that previously-identified Promatic 30-3 charger on page 12.
Note that if leads require replacement, such as for being too short, then it is important that the replacement leads are the appropriate marine grade, wire gauge and (especially important) have proper lugs, properly crimped.
Sea Ray used these contactors (like relays, but designed for high-current and toggles from OFF to ON to OFF, remaining at each state w/o requiring current, until selected to toggle to the other state). Yours probably also has contactors for both port and starboard banks, plus for generator, plus for windlass (if equipped).
My boat has rocker switches in the salon and in the engine room to toggle those battery bank contactors and at the helm to toggle the windlass contactor.
Yours was built w/o a contactor for the generator!
https://live.staticflickr.com/4699/38697254630_ca5a113d12_c.jpg
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10-26-2019 05:22 PM
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10-26-2019 07:28 PM
Has the replacement charger been selected?
All three bank marine chargers I've seen use one single common negative wire / terminal, shared by all the battery banks.
My suggestion is to NOT run additional wires, such as for the charger, to the battery terminals. The battery should have the fewest number of wires possible on the terminals. Each battery terminal must have at least one red or black wire, as-appropriate.
"Recall, there are no leads coming off the the negative side of each battery." There must be a fat black wire coming off each negative battery terminal, heading to the Main DC Ground Buss.
The charger negative (black) lead should go to the Main DC Ground Buss.
The charger positive (red) leads for the port and the starboard banks should attach where shown on the wiring diagram. They should attach to the battery side of the contactors.
The charger positive (red) lead for the generator should be connected to the newly added fuse, instead of to the battery terminal (as-shown in the wiring diagram). I would put it on the load side of the fuse.
Feel free to post an image of the newly-added fuse. It is a safety-critical component and must be installed correctly.
Sea Ray built my boat w/ labels on each end of all wires. When I changed and upgraded my boat I also label each end of all wires and cables.
All of my wires and cables are in split loom or in raceways, per ABYC. All wires are secured along their length per ABYC.
It is unlikely that the boat will ever be jump started, like on a car.
Remember to use appropriately-sized marine wire, w/ appropriately-sized marine lugs and especially-important the terminals must be properly crimped, w/ correct crimp tools.
Here are my crimp tools:
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/541969-soldering-crimped-battery-lugs-2.html#post11262694
https://www.thehulltruth.com/5587979-post18.html
https://www.thehulltruth.com/5596010-post26.html
Here is my Brady ID Xpert label maker:
https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/827700-wire-labels.html#post10067614
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10-27-2019 09:01 AM
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10-27-2019 10:28 AM
Here is the manual for the Guest (not Quest) 2731A by Marinco 10/10/10 battery charger.
https://www.marinco.com/en/~/media/inriver/386773-43337.pdf
That three bank charger has three pre-wired, fused output cables.
The wiring should be "easy" for the port and starboard banks, positive wire to the contactor line lug and negative wire to the Main DC Ground bus. It might be required to remove some of the cable jacket so the ends of those two wires can reach the correct locations.
For the generator it is expected that much of that output cable jacket must be removed to permit the wire ends to reach that newly added fuse and reach the Main DC Ground bus.
Remember to follow the specified mounting orientation and follow all other manufacturer's instructions.
Note, it might be required to snip off the NEMA 5-15 plug to permit wiring the AC supply to the existing feed. It might also be required to add a marine junction box to effect that connection, if one doesn't currently exist.
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10-27-2019 12:42 PM
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|344|2028705|2028880&id=1761126
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10-27-2019 12:49 PM
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10-27-2019 01:21 PM
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10-27-2019 04:56 PM
It is always good to follow ABYC and to NOT attach extra wires to the battery terminal lugs and instead connect them to the correct locations on the boat power distribution system, regardless of the low-tech manufacturer's instructions.
For the permanently mounted charger wiring, there are two charger types, one w/ screw terminals and no wires and the other type w/ the wires already attached. Either may be properly installed.
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10-27-2019 06:16 PM
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10-27-2019 06:46 PM
Check the dimensions to verify if it will fit in the available space.
https://www.greatlakesskipper.com/victron-energy-boat-battery-charger-centaur-12-50-12v-50a
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10-28-2019 08:02 AM
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10-28-2019 08:35 AM
The Guest 2731A by Marinco 10/10/10 battery charger that you mentioned is a three bank charger.
The Guest 2740A is a four bank charger.
The attached image is from the 340DA Owner's Manual. It looks tight, but it might fit. Measurements are required. It might be possible to shift the port side light to the left, if required. Height is possibly the limiting factor.
https://www.marinco.com/en/~/media/inriver/386773-43337.pdf
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10-28-2019 09:50 AM
ProNautic P 1240 series that the first rep. I spoke to recommended, and came equipped to ask about the differences in wiring. He explained the waterproof battery
charges have individual circuits and, therefore, the jacketed wires must be connected to each positive and negative posts.
The waterproof Guest charger,I was looking at is for boats that have more exposure to water. The charger for larger boats that have the unit under cover (engine room) are to connected to the negative bus bar and the positive can go to the disconnect
switches. The negative and positive leads do not have to match the specific battery. The 1240P can charge the two parallel
batteries, one starting and the generator, on the three leads outputs (three bank charger), therefore, not requiring a lead for each battery. They share a common ground from the bus to the charger bonding stud. If anyone is interested: Within the last @8 years, ABYC requires a fuse within, I think he said, 7" of the positive battery post. He went on to explain there are fuse adapters that mount on the post so no wire cutting and splicing is necessary. For a 40 amp charger, one uses a 50 amp fuse. Wingless, you were right on with your advice for the type charger I needed for placing in a covered engine room, proper wiring and fusing. Without your assistance and emphasis on safety, I may well have installed the wrong charger and wired it based on a non-waterproof, system.
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10-28-2019 10:06 AM
Each time I upgrade my boat I always follow the appropriate ABYC requirements.
My 2000 380DA was built w/o the close fuses, specified in current ABYC standards. When I have added new systems, such as my custom high-volume high-pressure compressor for my Kahlenberg air horns and whistle, I placed that new fuse close to the battery.
Custom Oasis XD-3000 Compressor Air System
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=6993
Kahlenberg Chimetone D-1 Air Horns
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=7028
Kahlenberg 117 Whistle
https://trainhornforums.com/showthread.php?t=7045
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10-28-2019 03:09 PM
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10-28-2019 04:13 PM
But, your boat w/ no factory generator battery disconnect is a modification that would be at the top of my list.
Before modifying the boat to add fuses, please provide a link to the part.
Yes, the single high-volume, high-pressure compressor on my boat provides air to both the horns and to the whistle.
As would be expected, the air requirements for a horn are different to those for a whistle. The horn wants / needs pressure, the whistle wants / needs volume. Of interest, I can blow into my whistle w/ air from my lungs and make sound (albeit quietly), but my high-pressure compressed air blow off nozzle into the same whistle won't make a peep.
My system is designed to provide both volume and pressure.
The modified Oasis XD-3000 provides 8 cfm at 100 psi. It is one of the largest 12V compressors available. To that I also have a 15 gallon tank and am using 1" ID plumbing throughout the boat.
It is that unrestricted flow that makes the whistle happy. I've got over three gallons of air in the 1" ID plumbing from the tank to the 3/4" solenoid air valve for the whistle.
I love the sweet unidirectional sound of my Kahlenberg 117 whistle. There are commercial river cruise boats in my area w/ the identical whistle.
My over-the-top air system is designed for continuous duty.
If all that is required is an occasional toot, then a normal compressor, normal tank, but large ID plumbing will permit the system to work w/ the Kahlenberg 117 whistle. The 1" flexible hose from the tank to the valve will let this "large" whistle to work w/ a normal compressor.
It is instead possible to use a smaller, higher pitch whistle, like the Kahlenberg 115AMP, also shown in my topic. That smaller whistle works fine on a compressed air blow hose and a normal compressed air system.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4482/37111990863_f848a20053_b.jpg
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10-28-2019 08:24 PM
The Stream - twin engine
Spoke with Marinco: The wiring for each battery must be installed as directed for the chargers longevity and correctness for the design, regardless if they are in parallel. He explained their interpretation as to why connecting to each battery post is compatible with the ABYC specs. For this model a parallel set of batteries each require its own leads going to each battery, and must have the companion leads in the jacket cable (positive and negative) connected to each batteries respective post, for this model charger. He said the Promatic model 63140 should meet my needs. What an awakening from when I first started out to select a charger. I am pleased with the education you provided and have added it to my bank (no pun intended) of knowledge. This forum is fortunate to have your vast experience and knowledge to consult with.
Today at 11:40 AM
My two concerns are compliance to ABYC: "No more than four conductors shall be secured to any one terminal stud. " and to avoid adding anything other than what is required to the battery terminal lug. I have seen "disaster" wiring on some boat, w/ LOTS of wires attached to the battery terminals.
It is absolutely not required to treat batteries connected in parallel as individual batteries, requiring their own battery charger bank.
That Marinco advice is wrong. It will result in very messy wiring and is 100% NOT required.
The charger is going to source about 10A maximum to the battery, at the peak, then dropping to lower current as the battery charges. That quantity of current is very low. Providing that current at the contactor lug of the battery cable IS IDENTICAL to providing that current at the other end of that fat thickness wire, at the battery terminal lug.
Instead, the battery charger should be selected to provide sufficient current for the total Ampere-Hour (Ah) capacity on the boat. A good minimum yardstick is 10A charger capacity for each battery, or 40A total for the four batteries on your boat, as a three bank charger.
A three bank charger is required for the four batteries on your boat, just like a three bank charger has been used for over a decade for the six batteries on my boat.
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10-29-2019 07:27 AM
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11-03-2019 05:31 AM
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11-03-2019 05:39 AM