Sea Ray

SeaMax · ‎05-19-2020

I have a 410 DA with twin 3118 cat diesels. I am not sure when the belts have been changed but I know it is quite a long time ago. I have asked my Marina to change them and today they told me it could take up to two days to change the belts They started by telling me they were draining the antifreeze and at that point I told them to stop. Can anyone tell me if this is anywhere near being close to what should be happening. When I look at it I cannot understand how it could take more than a couple hours per engine to change the belts. But also I am not a diesel mechanic.

wingless · ‎05-19-2020

My Interlink search did not locate a 3118 Caterpillar diesel engine. Could it instead be a 3116 engine?

One way to approach this arena is to use the Factory Service Manual (FSM) for this engine.

The FSM details major and minor service operations, with details about required operations that must be performed in advance of the selected service.

According to this Cat document on page 69 the coolant service life (assuming it passes all the chemical tests) ranges from 3,000 hours / 2 years to 12,000 hours / 6 years, depending on the product and periodic required additives.

https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20150224-59173-27200

SeaMax · ‎05-20-2020

Sorry that was a typo, they are 3116 Cats. But the point is not about changing antifreeze. The whole thing is about changing belts and having to drain antifreeze in order to do that. Plus estimating two days to do both engines. Belts are a wear item and I find it hard to believe that Cat or SeaRay would create a situation where it took that long to do a normal maintenance task.

wingless · ‎05-20-2020

Same response, start w/ the FSM to see what is defined by the factory and it is likely that the antifreeze has exceeded the service life, according to the previously linked document.

SeaMax · ‎05-20-2020

The FSM addresses what to do, how to do it. You seem to be hung up on changing antifreeze when that has nothing to do with my problem, If you read my first post, this is about changing belts - not changing antifreeze.

wingless · ‎05-20-2020

Sorry, not hung up on any of this...

My last response has two items connected by an AND.

"start w/ the FSM to see what is defined by the factory" and "it is likely that the antifreeze has exceeded the service life".

What is defined in the FSM for changing the belts? Does the FSM require draining the antifreeze to change the belts?

SeaMax · ‎05-20-2020

As mentioned, FSM is a what/when to do maintenance, not how to do it. More research tells me that removing the belt guard is the issue - which may lead to removing some cooling lines - which would require draining some antifreeze. If that is the case, I would surely replace with new regardless of the age. No matter what, I cannot believe it could take 2 days to complete this project. I have to explore that further.

wingless · ‎05-20-2020

"FSM is a what/when to do maintenance, not how to do it."

That is incorrect.

This link shows the 253 page Caterpillar Disassembly and Assembly for 3114, 3116 and 3126 Engines FSM.

https://www.barringtondieselclub.co.za/caterpillar/cat-3114-3116-3126-manuals.html

It sounds like the marina was ready to perform a normal full service on the engines, taking the listed two days, not just the requested belt replacement service.

SeaMax · ‎05-20-2020

Alright Sir, the first link you sent and the one I referred to as "not how to" was to Operation and Maintenance Manual - which is in fact a "when to" manual. The new link you just sent is to an entirely different set of manuals, which may in fact show the "how to" if I choose to pay a $59 subscription. Also my marina was instructed to change belts, nothing about a full service - which they would not do without consulting me. Thanks for your time, I will take it from here.

SeaMax · ‎05-21-2020

For anyone changing belts on the 3116 cat, here is what I found. After looking at the situation myself and having a discussion with my mechanic, I know understand the issues. There is a 2” diameter cooling system metal line that runs right across the belt guard. The tube also totally blocks access to one of the belt guard mounting bolts. So that is why they have to drain the coolant system, to remove the line to gain access to the bolt. You can’t even get at the bolt to cut if off. To make matters worse, the drain for the cooling system allows for only a small container it catch the coolant, all 8 gals of it. We have a workaround for that but Geez, does everything have to be so difficult. Unbelievable That Cat would allow this design which makes changing a wear part a major event. If you blow a belt on a trip, you are SOL. Unless you do as I am going to, and not replace the belt guard. In my engine room, you have to be a small midget to get in that area anyway so no one is going to accidentally walk into those belts when the engine is running.

wingless · ‎05-21-2020

Here is the 3116 maintenance manual, w/ info on changing the belts.

http://www.atlanticmobilemarine.com/3116_Maintenance.pdf

SeaMax · ‎05-21-2020

Thanks, I have the manual and that's the first place I went. It shows changing the belts with the belt shield off, that's a no brainer - very easy. If you read my post you see that getting the belt guard off is the problem, an the only problem because access is blocked by a cooling system tube.

wingless · ‎05-21-2020

Bad design, but not horrible when the engine is maintained per the FSM, because of the specified "short" coolant service interval. Those parts and fluid already need to come off/out when the engines are maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions.

When I disassemble an engine block, or other parts, then have to scrape off internal crud because of operation past the useful life of oil or antifreeze, then the value of those specified intervals becomes clear.

On my boat I designed and installed this custom five-zone high-volume high-pressure oil change system that sucks out eight quarts of engine oil in ten seconds. It shoots out like a fire hose. This permits me to effectively maintain my engines in excess of the manufacturer's requirements.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4602/38697255400_870a0b6402_b.jpg

SeaMax · ‎05-21-2020

Nice oil change system, my boat is equipped exactly the same and changing oil is a breeze. But that's not what were talking about here. In my opinion, it is a horrible design when you have drain the system and remove a cooling tube to change belts. Sure, you can change the belts at intervals when you flush the system - but it still very difficult to get the tube off and out of the way. But that in no way addresses the situation where you blow a belt on a long trip somewhere. Finding a diesel mechanic qualified to drain and refill the system, get everything apart and back together, just to put a belt on is ridiculous. The cooling tube could have easily been rerouted so as not to block access to the belt guard. If I were to reinstall the belt guard, (which I am not going to do) I would change the tube to a flexible tube and reroute out of the way. The attached image pretty well shows the problem.

wingless · ‎05-21-2020

It is your boat to modify as you desire.

On mine, I discovered design deficiencies that I resolved over the ownership years, to maintain proper functionality and to prevent premature component failure.

It is good to develop skills plus maintain material and tool inventory to permit repair of unexpected failures, so that a broken belt will be an inconvenience, not a catastrophe.

SeaMax · ‎05-21-2020

I agree, and with the current design, a broken belt is a catastrophe under any circumstance. Who carries 8 gal of ELC around on their boat. After I modify a few things, it will be an easy 10 minute job to put a new belt on, not a 4 hour job and 8 gal. of ELC. I am happy I discovered all this sitting in my slip vs. being in the middle of nowhere.

wingless · ‎05-21-2020

Isn't it "easy" to carry two empty five gallon buckets and a small transfer pump, like is going to be required for the service about to be performed?

If so, the antifreeze could be / should be emptied and reused, assuming it is still good.

Those items should probably be added to the carried tool arsenal.

SeaMax · ‎05-21-2020

Again, your missing the point. You want to make what should/will be a 10 minute job into a 4 hour job, and a lot of other crap like carrying 10 gal. of antifreeze. Do I need to carry a spare starter, spare alternator, spare water pump - and one of everything else that can fail at any time on a boat? Been on a lot of boats and never seen anyone carrying around 10 gal of ELC. I think we've beat this thing enough - end of discussion.

wingless · ‎05-21-2020

Yes, one of us is apparently missing the point...

Midnight_Run · ‎05-23-2020

A belt replacement should take less than 30 min on each engine with the majority of the job being taking off the safety shroud and placing it back on...there is no draining to take place other than a beer!

Big_mike1 · ‎05-24-2020

U do not need to drain the antifreeze other than for maintenance
Midnight run is correct the shroud covering the belt has about 8 screws in it that is the big part of the job then it’s loosening a tensioner and replacing the serpentine belt and applying tension back to the new belt to make it tight before tightening the screws
About an hour a side
Mechanic in car dealership for over 20 years I do my own work

Big_mike1 · ‎05-24-2020

Sorry just read all the comments I agree poor design the pipes in front are ridiculous have a good season Cummins does not have that

fifthchild · ‎05-24-2020

Guys. I own a 2000 410 Dancer with Cats. Changing belts on this boat can take longer than most. VERY tight conditions, belt guard and engine sync cable makes this a job for a spider monkey. I removed guard permanently but note that one bolt threads into oil reservoir so replace to avoid oil leaking.

SeaMax · ‎05-24-2020

Thanks. Since post mechanic has starboard side done. Easiest of the two - about 3 hrs total. He had the guard back on before I could tell him not to. Port engine is much harder due to access in getting the coolant tube off - and the guard is not going back on. Will make sure to replace bolts. One interesting point - I am not sure how many hours are on the belts - I know for sure 500 - and honestly they look as good as new. No cracks and width is exactly same as new. Oh well, its getting new anyway.

SeaMax · ‎05-24-2020

Midnight Run - you must be referring to some other engine model. I have cat 3116 and if you check the picture I posted in one of my comments, you can see the shroud bolt clearly inaccessible behind the coolant tube - which has to be removed to get at the bolt. And removing that requires draining the ELC.

gtstang462002 · ‎05-24-2020

Leave the guard off for the next belt change and don't put your fingers where they dont belong. Those 3116 CATS like to eat alternator belts anyhow. When they break, the tend to knock the water pump belt loose.

SeaMax · ‎05-24-2020

Yep, guard is not going back on. Amazing the life I got from the existing belts. Changing with guard off will be 15 minute job and could easily be done on the water with minimal tools.

Nameless_Boat · ‎05-26-2020

Hi guys,
I'm enjoying all the reading because I too have the CAT 3116's in my 93 440DA. I've owned it for 2 yrs and this bit of maintenance has been on my mind. The belts look to be in decent shape. Just are a little loose. But honestly, I doubt if they've ever been touched in 1300 hrs! Like SeaMax says, it's very tight to work in there. Both guards are on mine. I'm wondering if you couldn't just leave that one bolt off and reinstall the guard if you'd want??? (unless it's the one that is tapped into the oil galley).
Anyway, it's best also if I can figure out how to drain the 8Gal of coolant next. So, now that I have everything else pretty much sorted out on the boat, I'll move these jobs to the top of the list! Thanks....Good stuff here!!!

SeaMax · ‎05-26-2020

Nameless: I think you will have to remove the guards to tighten the belts and once you have the guards off, you may as well replace them. As mentioned, mine looked really good but they are new now. I am just leaving the guards off - not sure if you could wiggle it behind the coolant tube once that is back in place. If you could, then I suppose you could put it back on and leave out the one problem bolt. Too me its not worth the trouble putting it back on. As far as draining the ELC, I am leaving that up to my mechanic. May have to drain into the boat and remove with vacuum, then clean up the mess. Not good no matter how you do it. That’s why I am so frustrated that Cat/Sea Ray would allow a design like this.

Nameless_Boat · ‎05-27-2020

Yep. I agree with both points: The SR design is not good and belts are something that you should be able to change out like a Raycor, on the water. So, my guards will stay off, also.

Sea Ray

I have a 410 DA with twin 3118...